posted August 21, 1999 06:11 AM            

Okay...... I certainly don't know ALL, but I think I can answer your questions, so I'll take it one group at a time. ^^ This is going to be LONG.

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Miang and Krelian -- it's my belief that she approached him just as she approached Lacan - in Shevat. Understand that after Sophia's death he had every desire to destroy what he could of humanity AND Shevat...... he wanted to create god, and when Miang gave him that chance, he snapped it up right away.

He has no desire to be anywhere hear her - she's the one who caused Elly's death in the first place. When he said he wanted to merge with the Mother, he meant True Elly, not True Miang. (When they merge with Deus, the 'Elly' part of her became dominant again, while Miang -- as Urobolus -- completed Deus.) While Krelian wanted higher understanding from god, Miang literally needed to merge with her counterpart and complete Deus. Even had she wanted to go her own way, she couldn't because of the program. (She was created for the sole purpose of doing this as far as it says.)

Elly, Abel, and the Eldrige crew -- It doesn't tell me who Abel is supposed to be, unfortunately, but your theory sounds reasonable...... about him knowing the Captain's family. Zohar created Elly "from scratch" though, with only Abel's thoughts to work with, so it had to come from somewhere.

I can tell you that we'll probably see something about this eventually, with luck -- but I can't say much else. ^^

Cain and the Gazel -- These were Original Miang's thirteen children. They were born Animus because they were the first of Deus's humans, and their descendants carry that on, and eventually emerge in Fei's friends.

Cain....... I'm not too sure about Cain. All the profile talks about is his connection to Ramsus and his conflict with the Gazel about how to handle the humans and Deus, and Anenelbe. But all the sketches indicate that he has always looked like that......

I'm not sure why the Gazel were the only ones who could use the Key either, and it doesn't say. ^^ (I can tell you all sorts of other things about them though. ^_~)

Miang and Nisan -- Yes, she planned to allow herself to be captured, but I think she was forced into it by the Gazel. They weren't happy with her insistence that she have full control over the Contact and the Anti-type..... But needless to say, when she brought Krelian in to save their minds and put them into the computer, she gained power over them. She may have purposely let four of them die first, just to make her point.

It's easy to assume that she decided to go to Krelian by herself, for the control he would give her...... but this section is rather neglected in the book. ^^

Deus -- Deus is the Interplanetary Invasion Weapon, to go with the Interplanetary Transport (Eldrige). It's full of possibilities though..... Deus was created several thousand years (4, I think) before the Eldrige landed on the planet of Xenogears.

Miang...... she was hoping to transcend her current existence after merging with Deus -- either that, or to die. And Krelian was helping her, in return for being able to merge along with her. Krelian wanted the knowledge, she wanted the freedom.

Abel -- Like I said, he's a mystery to me. All I can say is that he has the power to free Zohar because when they merged, he gained that complete understanding and stored it in his introns. He also gained a direct link to the Wave Existence, and these things are what compel him, as the "Contact", to try to free everyone.

Although The Wave Existence can't free itself, it can transfer its power to an outside source (meaning Fei) who can then use that limitless power to destroy the "body" of Zohar.

Wave Existence -- This being IS on the higher dimension, it doesn't just touch it. It wants to be free of it's fleshly cage so it can return to it't true place...... whatever that might be. In that dimension. ^_~

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**faint**

I tried to answer all the questions I saw to the best of my knowledge, so I guess it I missed anything...... well, I'll see it here, won't I? Sorry for the length of this. I'm definitely giving this a separate section on my webpage!

Ja mata!

-- Amber Michelle

posted August 21, 1999 07:31 AM            

>>Miang and Nisan -- Yes, she planned to allow herself to be captured<<

Was this officially stated in the book? I know it's also my theory (i've noticed we have the same theory all throughout -- in account for this and your past messages, except for that Cain face.. heh... of course, we may have some conflicts in future opinions), but is it really true she let herself be captured?

>>Deus -- Deus is the Interplanetary Invasion Weapon, to go with the Interplanetary Transport (Eldrige). It's full of possibilities though..... Deus was created several thousand years (4, I think) before the Eldrige landed on the planet of Xenogears. <<

I always thought that yes, the two Interplanetary creations were made at the same period, but it had been years of testing before the actual Deus notoriety began. I also estimate some more years before Eldridge reached the solar system where the Xenogears story took place.

>>And Krelian was helping her, in return for being able to merge along with her. Krelian wanted the knowledge, she wanted the freedom. <<

I think that the Miang factor, being a mere programmed urge and imprint in women's genes, cannot develop such an abstract feeling for freedom. Maybe she just wants to reunite with Deus - without accounting for her freedom. As you have said, she is "programmed" in doing so. Ok, so part of her wants to be free from the current human existence she is currently having, but to be only one with Deus. With this, I firmly believe she wanted "reunification", rather than "freedom".

>>Abel -- Like I said, he's a mystery to me. All I can say is that he has the power to free Zohar because when they merged, he gained that complete understanding and stored it in his introns. <<

Abel. I don't know what power he holds, but I assume that it was by pure coincidence that Abel observed Zohar while Zohar accidentally tapped into the Sefirot. The Wave Existence mentioned that Abel was the very one who caused its descent, by saying "... I can only be freed by the very person who brought me into this dimension..." (or something like that -- I forgot the phrase, but I clearly remember the content). The Wave Existence also mentioned that it assumes the form of how it was perceived by its observer -- who is Abel. Abel, as I again assume, was lost at that very moment in the deeper compartments of the Eldridge, and was despirately trying to find his Mother -- like any other lost child. His thoughts affected the Wave Existence in such a way that we now all know.

>>Although The Wave Existence can't free itself, it can transfer its power to an outside source (meaning Fei) who can then use that limitless power to destroy the "body" of Zohar.<<

It was implied that the Wave Existence's power was inherited by the 3 beings present during its transcendence. Its raw power was bestowed upon Zohar, its will upon the being called the -Mother-, and "other remaining" power to Abel. These attributes were then passed to their descendants. I also assumed that this power made these beings partially invincible in a way -- because they all survived the crash. This partition in power and will made Abel and his descendants essential parts of Zohar -- which is why it wants to merge with Fei (the contact). Now Fei, and only Fei can free the Wave Existence by freeing it from its cage.

posted August 21, 1999 08:17 AM            

Thank you!!!

>When he said he wanted to merge with the Mother, he meant True Elly, not True Miang.<

So True Elly and True Miang are different enteties? interesting.....I had always assumed they were the same

>Even had she wanted to go her own way, she couldn't because of the program. (She was created for the sole purpose of doing this as far as it says.)<

So the only way to be able to have her own way, is to destroy Dues and release her from her programming? hmmmm

>I can tell you that we'll probably see something about this eventually,with luck -- but I can't say much else. ^^<

aah, I can't wait ^^;; a fanfic? another xenogears book? oops you said you wouldn't say ._.

>and Anenelbe.<

Whats Anenelbe? I forgot -_-

>(I can tell you all sorts of other things about them though. ^_~)<

posted August 21, 1999 08:40 AM            

Well here's what I think. Note I have not actually seen Perfect Works so all the information I say comes directly for what I understood in thegame it self.

Miang and Krelian: I think it might be the other way around. I think that it was in fact Krelian who asked Miang for his help in creating his God, which was his true intent. Miang wanted to resurrect Deus, which coincided with Krelian's plan to create a god, I don't think it mattered to Krelian what creation he had in mind as long as it was god-like. Miang's position was solely to resurrect Deus so she was like a tool for Krelian to use. I think Krelian already knew of Miang's existence before he approached her with his plan to create a god, Deus. Because Krelian knew what the Elders of Shevat had planned. They had corroborated with the Gazel to hand over Miang to Shevat for imprisonment in exchange for handing over Sofia to Solaris. Zephyr informed Roni, Lacan, Krelian etc... of this. Miang was imprisoned in Shevat so it could have been that Krelian talked to her there.

Elly, Abel, and the Eldridge Crew: I think that Abel was just one of the passengers on the Eldridge. But I think he came into contact with Zohar sometime before he was on the Eldridge, possibly on a "research station" that was observing the test run of Deus. I think that Zohar was on the "research station" and I think that Abel as a child, posibly 5 years old it looked like to me in that anime clip, somehow wandered in range of Zohar's "eye" and made contact with it. I think that the Elly was the Captain's daughter and Abel knew her as a good friend because he had lost his mother as a child. The Wave Existence picked up his image and memories of Elly then and formed the will of Elhaym. This was the wave Existences Will to reutrn from where it came from. I think that years later he met up with Elly again on the Eldridge, and Abel was the sole Survivor of the disaster on the Eldridge. I think he survived because Deus reactivated Zohar and so the Wave Existence's influence on Abel was restored. This influence on Abel was probably what made him the sole survivor of the Eldridge. He met up with Elly again but she was the Elly that came from the Miang/Elly combination we see in the Intro Movie, and "everything starts from there" as Fei says.

Cain and the Gazel Ministry: Cain is just like Ramsus I believe he has the ability to control all that is Animus and Anima. He can Align with all the Anima relics if need be. Also the reason for Cain's name is because Ramsus was created to be an artifical contact, the Contact being Fei at this time. If Ramsus has the ability to Align with all the Anima Relics than so should Fei. And since Fei and Abel are Contacts, Cain's abilities should be the same as a Contact. Thus Abel and Cain are in a sense brothers who share eachothers interests. This is why Cain decided to go against the Gazel in reawakening Deus. He even says he atones for his crime 500 years ago. That crime was allowing Miang and the Gazel of that time to resurrect Deus, later known as the Diabolos Invasion. His crime I think was standing by and watch a whole world be almost destroyed.

Also I think Cain can use the Gaetia key as well as the Gazel. But he wants to prevent them from activating it because he's doing all he can to prevent what happened 500 years ago. As for why only Cain and the Gazel can use the Key I don't know.

Deus: Deus, sometimes reffered to as Yabeh, is the Interplanetary Invasion Weapon System. The Eldridge was just being used to trans port the dismantled Deus to another planet so it could be disposed of there. Deus was going to be disposed because of it's unpredictability and was far too powerful to control. It wiped out a whole plane, leaving nothing left on the surface after a test run. The creators of Yabeh decided that this was weapon was far too powerful and unreliable to be controlled so they decided to scrap it. They put it on the Eldridge because of it's immense size.

Phew! I think that's enough for me now. I'll post more of what I think at a later time. This took me over half an hour to type

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NOTE: I am not the Hyuga from the staff. I just want to keep the same name where ever I go.

"I once heard a tale of a man who split himself in two. The one part never changed at all; the other grew and grew. The changeless part was always true, the growing part was always new, and I wondered, when the tale was through, which part was me, and which was you." -From the Gods whisper of Han Qing-Jao. From the novel Children of the Mind

posted August 21, 1999 10:10 AM            

Miang and Elly -- She started out in teh stasis tube as "Elehayym". WHen Zohar and Deus crashed, she was..... nto ejected exactly, but sent out. She's the same as the pruple-haired wonan on the beach, or in other words, she is also "True Miang". But Miang came into being second, after being created as Elly. So the two different factors split, creating the two Mothers. One was created in the other by Deus's influence.

(Is this making sense? It's hard to explain..... it's like Elly is off during that time, when Deus is awake -- and that's what it says in the book.)

Miang in Shevat, etc. -- It really doesn't say a word about it, even in the timeline. But the game implied it, or so I thought. It's my interpretation of what I read.

Miang and Krelian --All I can tell for certain is that he joined up with Miang and Cain (he is specifically mentioned) during the Diabalos Invasion. It says here that he learned about Mahanon, and she told him that she and Cain were going to resurrect Deus. That is why he went with her -- this was his chance to literally create god with his own hands, using the knowledge he gained in training with Melchoir.

System Hawwa (Miang) -- You are right about Miang pursuing unification. I was talking about the needs of her humanity -- because a part of her was human, whenever she dwelled in a human body. (But I have to admit that part of her "humanity" is only based on my interpretation of her actions during the game. And also what I know of her time as an Element.)

However, Factor Hawwa had no free will, so she could only go along with what Deus's system demanded. As long as that got done, she didn't really care about much else. And in return for Krelian's help, she agreed to let him merge as an extra part.

Abel -- I won't agree or disagree here. (This is mainly about the response Nutz posted.) I dont'like Fei, and therefore I don't like any of his previous incarnations. ^_~ I haven't actually looked in his section to be perfectly honest, but I don't think he alone released the Zohar Modifier. As to his relation to the captain...... well, we're going to see.

But regardless of whether or not others can draw upon Zohar's power, Abel specifically was given teh power to destroy it, and Deus. Miang and Elly cannot do it - they can only merge. But since Abel/Fei is an "outside" entity, created by neither the Wave Existence OR Deus, he alone has the power to destroy both of them.

Eldrige, Deus -- Deus was created about thirty years before the Eldrige crashed..... (must change my timeline a bit). It destroyed a heavily populated colony before the test run - I THINK - and that's why they were taking it elsewhere. The Eldrige was sent to find a new colony, and on their way they were to dismantle the weapon and destroy it. So obviously, there was a heavy military presence on the ship.

I don't think the Captain's family was aboard the ship, though that's more a personal thought.

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Ah...... I don't think I answered everything, or even responded to everything, but this is all I can remember, and I took most of it from the book (what I can read) or what Ms. Saga said...... ^^;

Too bad this thread is prone to huge responses, ya know? ^_^ But actually -- Nutz -- I agree with what you said, mostly.

Ja.

-- Amber Michelle

posted August 21, 1999 10:42 AM            

>>Miang and Krelian: I think it might be the other way around. <<
I disagree. If Krelian knew about Miang, the Gazel and their sole purpose of resurrecting Deus even before Sophia's death, then he would have told Sophia about this, and Sophia might have also told the whole Nisan Sect about it -- even Shevat. Then Shevat would not have even dared make that trade-off with Solaris. But Miang's motives remain hidden until that very moment she and Krelian met. It was very evident that Krelian had no idea of this while he was in Nisan. Being the head of the Nisan troops, he would have used that info at their perusal.

>>Elly, Abel, and the Eldridge Crew: I think that Abel was just one of the passengers on the Eldridge.<<
He is. Nobody disagrees with that.

>>possibly on a "research station" that was observing the test run of Deus. I think that Zohar was on the "research station"<<
I disagree again. You should read Miang-Elly's lines once more. You should also read Fei's lines while he was at that site where Kadomony crashed. Deus was not tested on the Eldridge, rather it was disassembled and Zohar was the only part (along with a deteriorated module -- the "Deus" thing you fought on gears) on the Eldridge.

With your theory, I'd question you -- where does the -Mother- fit in? Why was she there? In a testing area for an Interplanetary Invasion Weapon -- how would a small child enter it? Shouldn't it be guarded with maximum security? Where are all those people going, and why were they shipped together with a fully functional weapon as you so claim?

I'll be having more proof regarding this after we finish the script. The PW book will shed more light too.

>>I think that the Elly was the Captain's daughter and Abel knew her as a good friend because he had lost his mother as a child. <<
That girl in the pendant cannot be regarded as "elly" herself, however she is connected to Fei in some sense. The Wave existence picked up Abel's memories of his Mother, or a motherfly figure, and not the child as you so claim from the pendant. It was clearly stated that the wave had "motherly will", which you can't get from the child you called "elly".

>>I think he survived because Deus reactivated Zohar and so the Wave Existence's influence on Abel was restored. <<
Zohar *was* active all along. It was never deactivated. Proof is -- it tapped the Sefiroth, and was the very thing that used Kadomony to create the Mother. Take note though -- Zohar is Deus... as how we are related to our Brain. Abel was not the sole survivor of the Eldridge crash. The Mother and the Zohar survived too.

>>Cain and the Gazel Ministry: Cain is just like Ramsus I believe he has the ability to control all that is Animus and Anima.<<
I don't think he has control over the Animus and Anima. He is just the first human born...and like Cain from the Bible, he is looked upon by his descendants, and all who came from his lineage are cursed. See the similarities? Remember how the first borns always get the respect and obedience of the later generations?

>>He can Align with all the Anima relics if need be.<<
All? That cannot be. If such was possible, then Deus' resurrection might have been done a long time ago, and the Gazel would have not took their time searching for people who would align for them since their body was lost.

>>And since Fei and Abel are Contacts, Cain's abilities should be the same as a Contact.<<
That's weird. I thought the reason why Abel was called "The contact" was because he had contact with Zohar during that "Sefiroth transcention phenomenon", and not because he can align with Animus.

>>The creators of Yabeh decided that this was weapon was far too powerful and unreliable to be controlled so they decided to scrap it. <<

Now you are totally contradicting yourself. You said earlier that they were testing it on the Eldridge when Abel saw it. Why would they test something that's confirmed to be dangerous? Why activate it?

posted August 21, 1999 11:25 AM            

Ah Nutz, I said that Deus itself reactivated Zohar, not the Eldridge's crew. Deus has a will of its's own so it used what resources it contained with in itself to reactivate Zohar so it could control the Eldridge itself to bring it to the nearst planet so it could reconstruct itself.

Nutz, where did I say say Deus was tested on the Eldidge? I stated that it was tested on another planet. Deus was on the Eldridge in pieces so that it could be disposed of on another planet.

As for the -Mother-, I mean Abel met up with Elly, the real one, not the -Mother-, before coming into contact with Zohar. It was this memory that Abel had of her that formed the -Mother's Will- and thus created Elly out of the image in Abel's mind. I'm going by my own theory that Elly was an actual person before Abel came in contact with Zohar. And thus his memory of her is what created the -Mother- version of Elly.

I stated that Fei, Ramsus, Cain connection. Because of what I remember what Krelian once said of Ramsus. Krelian said that Ramsus was created to have the abilities of the Contact. He also stated that Ramsus can align with all the Anima Relics. And also Krelian says that the only one who can defeat Cain is Cain, so he created Ramsus so that he could defeat Cain. Thus Fei, Ramsus, and Cain all have the same abilities. But only Fei can make contact with Zohar, that's the only difference between them.

Sorry for this long winded defence of mine My theories do evolve over time so don't be surprised by any subtle changes that may come

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NOTE: I am not the Hyuga from the staff. I just want to keep the same name where ever I go.

"I once heard a tale of a man who split himself in two. The one part never changed at all; the other grew and grew. The changeless part was always true, the growing part was always new, and I wondered, when the tale was through, which part was me, and which was you." -From the Gods whisper of Han Qing-Jao. From the novel Children of the Mind

posted August 21, 1999 11:58 AM            

I quote you "...But I think he came into contact with Zohar sometime before he was on the Eldridge, possibly on a "research station" that was observing the test run of Deus..."

So I think you really meant that Deus was tested on the Eldridge. Your phrase clearly says so, but you know are retracting it.
Zohar was on the Eldridge as a disassembled part -- and we don't know if it's a research center, or a testing center or whatever. Here's a collage for you:

>>Ah Nutz, I said that Deus itself reactivated Zohar, not the Eldridge's crew. Deus has a will of its's own so it used what resources it contained with in itself to reactivate Zohar so it could control the Eldridge itself to bring it to the nearst planet so it could reconstruct itself.<<

So who said the Eldridge's crew activated it? Zohar was activated all along. Nobody deactivated nor activated it. Zohar was just semi-helpless until it harnessed the Wave Existence's power. Zohar is Deus' Central control and power unit, it is fully functional on the Eldridge.

>>where did I say say Deus was tested on the Eldidge? I stated that it was tested on another planet. Deus was on the Eldridge in pieces so that it could be disposed of on another planet.<<
Ahem.. again... the above quote? You said a "test run" meaning, it was tested -- according to your phrase.

>>As for the -Mother-, I mean Abel met up with Elly, the real one, not the -Mother-, before coming into contact with Zohar.<<

I was talking about the Mother on the pendant. She might have been the motherly figure Abel had -- and the little girl Abel's playmate. The wave's will came from a Mother's will formed in Abel's head -- so I don't know about your early Elly theory, but that part of the Motherly will came from Abel's longing for a Mother, not from some child girl you claim to be Elly.

>>Krelian said that Ramsus was created to have the abilities of the Contact. He also stated that Ramsus can align with all the Anima Relics. And also Krelian says that the only one who can defeat Cain is Cain, so he created Ramsus so that he could defeat Cain. Thus Fei, Ramsus, and Cain all have the same abilities. But only Fei can make contact with Zohar, that's the only difference between them.<<

Could it have occured to you that you can make a combination of all the three... but that doesn't mean all the three original pieces would not be equal to each other? Ok, basic syllogism. 1+2=3 but it doesn't necessarily mean that 1=2, 1=3, and 2=3. I hope you get my point.

And the main purpose of the Contact is to "have contact" with Zohar, so if only Fei can do that (as what you've said), it means Ramsus cannot be the contact. I'm basing this from your contrasting premises. You said Ramsus = having abilities of the contact, but you also said that Fei is the only contact. Therefore, there is a contradiction between your premises, and the conclusion would be that Ramsus is not equal to a Contact. That sums that Fei, Ramsus and Cain are not the same, because two elements of your premise are not equal.

Sorry, but I guess my Logic classes is getting into me. Analyzing premises is so fun!

posted August 21, 1999 01:38 PM            

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NOTE: I am not the Hyuga from the staff. I just want to keep the same name where ever I go.

"I once heard a tale of a man who split himself in two. The one part never changed at all; the other grew and grew. The changeless part was always true, the growing part was always new, and I wondered, when the tale was through, which part was me, and which was you." -From the Gods whisper of Han Qing-Jao. From the novel Children of the Mind