The Nature of 'Id'. - http://www.leamonde.net Forums


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Im a Guy !Rune Grey
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"The Nature of 'Id'." , Wed 9 Aug 19:46


Now, we all know about the entwined relationship between Fei and Id during the story... Id's creation after the continued torture young Fei sufferes at the hands of Krelian and Miang, his destruction of Elru, watching his parents get killed...

But where did Id COME from? After all, his physical appearance and coloring are very different from Fei, and are not something that would be generated at the spur of a moment. So what exactly IS Id?

Although I've not seem much direct evidence in the story (but then it wouldn't be a theory ^^) I think that Id is part of the contact... very much as Miang is part of the Anti-type. However, only the most recent 'Id' that we've seen has gained autonomity... the rest are simply aspects of the Contact's personality.

And if you've noticed, there have been 2 rather... drastic depopulations of the world, each corresponding to the death of an Anti-type with a surviving Contact. And in the last one, the Diabalos Collapse, Lacan assumed Id's form for the duration.

Mayhaps this generation is not the first time the 'Red Demon' has appeared? Just a thought to mull over...

Rune Grey
~Perpetual Thorn of Logic and Reason
"Then all human beings might as well perish! The path to relase us from the eternal cycles of life the tragedies of history and the spell of fate!"
~Grahf
Sorata: Hey can't you make a cooler exit??? Like flying off or disappering into thin air?
Yuto: Only a freak would do something like that in normal space.
~X


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Im a Guy !Angel of Dark

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"Re(1):The Nature of 'Id'." , Mon 4 Sep 15:44


Well when you look at the story, Id is there after Lacan desides h hates the world. Since Feis past life is Lacan, then it most likely possible that Id caught up with him when he saw his Parents killed after all that torture he went through.

God is in His Heaven. All is right with the World.

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Myaru
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"Re(1):The Nature of 'Id'." , Thu 10 Aug 22:47


I hope I'm awake enough that this won't be gibberish. ^^ When your head feels like it's been packed in cotton, it kind of decreases one's capacity to come up with inteliigible theories. ^^

Now, to come up with something totally off the wall... Perhaps this manifestation of 'Id' is, in fact, something stored in his introns. If it was, as you say, a physical representation of the Contact's ether potential, then it might have something to do with the Urobolus Ring...

Abel, we might want to note, did not show destructive tendancies of any sort, and I don't believe he was capable of the power the later Contacts were; he was only the beginning of the game, only a normal human chosen by Zohar to bear the legacy. But every other Contact after him was born of a woman with the Urobolus Ring, and therefore, he had the potential to become a living ether vessel...

So, like Elly (and all women, actually), his true awakening might actually change his appearance. Elly's TRUE awakening took place when she merged with Miang... Obviously her transformation had something to do with Miang, but if you think about it, it was simply the meeting of both of her true selves, and since Miang is the embodiment of destructive power... and Id is also the embodiment of destructive power...

The only difference is that Elly's persona was split in half until she and Miang merged in the game, while the embodiments of the Contact's different sides were always contained in one body. Even when Fei and Id were split personas, they still shared the same body. But that wasn't so with Elly and Miang, obviously.

So if Elly and Miang ahd been once person, then when Elly had awakenings like with the Drive, where she released her pain and rage destructively, then she might have morphed much as Fei did when he released his torment and became his Id. The difference in physical appearance is symbolic of their state of mind.

Hmmm, did that make any sense? I either rambled insanely or repeated myself, I think... *shrug* Well, anyway...


Ja mata!

Amber Michelle

"On the heights all paths are paved with daggers." - Wheel of Time


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"Re(2):The Nature of 'Id'." , Sat 12 Aug 21:26


Ok now its getting confusing. If Miang and ID are esentially the same thing why wasn't Elly reborn as the Mother persona. When Grahf split from Lacan it didnt stop Fei being reborn with the ID factor in his psyche. I can only assume that the difference is that in the case of Elly and Miang the split was greater because of their roles. Fei needs contact powers whilst Elly doesn't. Imagine if Elly was born with the Miang factor in her psyche. It could have come out during the drive experiments and been something she'd have to fight like with Fei and ID. Also Elly would probably have greater Ether powers making her a much more impressive character.

Oh well those are just another days incoherrant ramblings.

Yes totally useless ha ha chase after it
boy a love thats unattainable no matter
how hard you pursue it.


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Myaru
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"Re(3):The Nature of 'Id'." , Sun 13 Aug 04:36


Actually, that's not quite what I meant...

You see, the fact that Elly and Miang ARE two different people (or at least two different bodies and personalities) changes things for them. I'm only saying that the nature of their existence may be similar.

Grahf only split from Lacan once Lacan had died - before that, they were one person. So in life - which is really all that counts - the difference is that the Contact contains his Id, while Elly's is already seperate from her...

Heh, but the real point was, they're similar. I'm not saying Miang is Elly's 'Id', I'm saying that she's simply a counterpart TO Id... and I used it as a tool to demonstrate how the transformation might be a factor in every Contact, instead of just Fei.

Of course, I may not have made myself clear... Heh, even now I may not be very clear. See, for some reason, there's DUST hanging in the air, over the area where I live. Like a dust storm, but with no wind. It just appeared... and completely screwed my chances of recovering quickly from this cold. ^^

So if I sound a little strange... that's why. ^^


Ja mata.

Amber Michelle

"On the heights all paths are paved with daggers." - Wheel of Time


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"Re(4):The Nature of 'Id'." , Sun 13 Aug 22:38


Nope thats clear enough, it was partly my mistake too since I speed read your post. The more I think about it the more I realise that Miang and ID are not the same thing only similar still it was a nice idea and the two obviously do have simularities as noted in that piece of fanfiction you posted in another thread.

Yes totally useless ha ha chase after it
boy a love thats unattainable no matter
how hard you pursue it.


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Azusa Kuraino

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"Re(1):The Nature of 'Id'." , Thu 10 Aug 22:11


Well, if you're referring to Id's appearance being so drastically different from Fei's... I haven't played the game in a while, but I /seem/ to recall a scene where we see Lacan after his transformation into Grahf but before he transmigrates for the first time, and he looks just like Id. Maybe I'm hallucinating, or it was a weird dream I had or something. ^^; If it /did/ happen, though, it infers that something about that particular appearance /is/ inherent to the Contact-- perhaps a physical change takes place when he gains access to his true Ether potential. That's the best explanation I can come up with, at any rate... not that I expect anyone to pay attention to /my/ theories, but... Well... >< I was bored, okay?


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Im a Guy !Emperor Cain

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"Re(1):The Nature of 'Id'." , Wed 9 Aug 20:52


You're probably right; Id was probably in the contact, but it wasn't until Fei's incarnation that a trauma of immense proportions came around to truly bring him out. I guess you could call Grahf Lacan's Id, although Grahf is more of another entity seperate from Lacan than an Id of Lacan. If Lacan died, Grahf would remain, but if Fei died, so would Id. Kim and Abel might have had Ids too, but there was no trauma big enough to bring them out.

As for how exactly Id comes out, I have no clue. Dissassociative Disorder is a real disorder, but I don't think there's ever been a case where the 2 personalities look radically different from each other.

"Have you ever been in love?" Kissoon replied.
"Yes I think so."
"Then you've been to Quiddity twice. Once the first night you slept out of the womb. The second occassion the night you lay beside the woman you loved. Or man was it?" He laughed. "Whichever."
"Quiddity is the sea."
"Quiddity is the sea. And in it are islands called the Ephemeris."
"I want to go there." Jaff breathed.
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"The last night of your life. That's all we ever get."
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"Re(2):The Nature of 'Id'." , Wed 9 Aug 21:00


Well, I was reffering more to the fact that Id was a 'state of mind' for the contact previously, rather than a seperately thinking entity. Also, there is some debate on if Dissassociative Disorder and MPD really exsist... there have been far too many cases of a doctor convincing a patient that they have the disorder... but that is besides the point. ^^:

Also, one would certainly think that the death of your reason for living would be enough of a trauma to bring about an 'Id' state. After all, Lacan was in one for quite a while. (If you remember any of the post Diabalos scenes in the game, Lacan DID look like Id.) But only because the circumstances that created the Id we know didn't drive him suicidally insane, or prompt him to burn the world, allowed this Id to survive for any signifigant length of time.

More ranting... sou ka...

Rune Grey
~Perpetual Thorn of Logic and Reason
"Then all human beings might as well perish! The path to relase us from the eternal cycles of life the tragedies of history and the spell of fate!"
~Grahf
Sorata: Hey can't you make a cooler exit??? Like flying off or disappering into thin air?
Yuto: Only a freak would do something like that in normal space.
~X


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"Re(3):The Nature of 'Id'." , Wed 9 Aug 23:10


Lacan doens't look like Id and I have no idea how Id's appearance came to be.

-Peace to all those who come here. Fearing great calamity we sealed this legacy entrusting its fate to you.-


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"Re(4):The Nature of 'Id'." , Wed 9 Aug 23:59:


Ok firstly ID's appearance most likely changes

a)So that most people dont expect him to be Fei

and

b)Because he has access to all the powers of the contact and as such is able to alter his appearance to some extent a bit like how Stone's appearance changed after Krelian gave him more power


Now here's the big question: Did ID always exist in Fei's psyche or was he the creation of the Coward?

I have a theory that ID is actually the part of Fei's psyche which is set up to access his role as the contact. Or to put it simply ID allows Fei to gain access to his past life memories, contact powers and the wave existence.

Of course ID is supposed to be a part of Fei's personality not a seperate entity and what happened in the case of Fei was that the part which was seperated from the whole to deal with the trauma was the ID part.

In the case of Grahf the ID part became dominant over the rest of Lacan's psyche and took control. Grahf and ID are two different entitys although both are in a way the same thing. The big question to me is what happened to the part of Grahf which wasnt ID ie Lacan after contact with the wave existence? My guess is that Grahf suppressed Lacan. After that body died Grahf as we know continued to live much the same way as Miang by passing himself down from host to host. When Fei was born he was born with the same psyche more or less as Lacan including the ID part. Thus explaining how the two can exist at the same time.

Here is also a scene near the end of the game taken from Cain's brilliant script during which Grahf looks exactly like ID. My guess is that in Lacan's case Grahf or ID if you like became the dominant part of Lacan's psyche and took control. At this point Lacan is temporarily able to regain control of his body but by this time his friends have turned on him. Lacan is killed but Grahf moves on to his next body.


Lacan:...What ...is... this... place...? ...My execution site...?

[He sees more people surround him.]

Lacan:...Why do you turn on me? I thought we were friends!

[He stands at Weltall.]

Lacan:Who... is it...?

[He stares over the wasteland around him.]

Lacan:Did I... cause this...? What has happened to me...? What...have...
I... become...?

...Live!

[Lacan once again stands on Weltall.]

Lacan:...I will live...!

[He transforms into Grahf.]

Lacan:Even if I go to hell, I will live till the end of this world. And if
the world does not come to an end... I will destroy it with my own hands!

Yes totally useless ha ha chase after it
boy a love thats unattainable no matter
how hard you pursue it.

[this message was edited by DarkSabre on Thu 10 Aug 00:25]


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"Re(5):The Nature of 'Id'." , Thu 10 Aug 18:47


All are interesting points. I'd never considered anything beyond that Id was created so the Coward wouldn't have to deal with what he disliked.

Philosophers... I wish I could be one.

"The body is but a vessel for the soul
A puppet which bends to the soul's tyranny
And lo the body is not eternal
For it must feed on the flesh of others
Lest it return to the dust whence it came
Therefore must the soul
Decieve despise and murder men."
- A. J. Durai
-----------------------
"I don't need a reason to beat the crap out of anyone who pisses me off!!!" - Ricardo Banderas


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"Re(6):The Nature of 'Id'." , Thu 10 Aug 19:57


Well, to normal people who experience mental disorders, they don't change their appearances much. but remember Fei is not a "normal" person in any way, so maybe his personality switch just cause his appearance to change.

Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.
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Im a Guy !Lord MorbId

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"The Way Id Looks" , Mon 4 Sep 16:03


Before the plot really came together, I thought Grahf was a corrupted Fei/Lacan and Miang the Elly from that time....

But I think the reason that Id is so different is because after Id was sealed away, he created a new image of himself, to match how he felt, possibly patterning it off of Grahf's memories.

I'm sure he transforms at all... it's possible Id is somehow able to make himself appear to look different to the people around him. Miang has hypnotic powers (I think), why wouldn't ID be able to handle something so simple?


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