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Myaru

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"Countless lives..." , Tue 1 Aug 05:22:


(Yes, I'm obsessed. And I'm hungry, too.)

Now, here's another Elly/Fei issue for you: Although we only see four incarnations of them, does that mean there weren't any others at all?

The Perfect Works states in its diagrams (to my knowledge) that these were the only four lives that produced Contacts and Anti-types. However... this is referring to perfect reincarnations. What about imperfect rebirths?

Grahf says that he had to wait 500 years for a perfect reincarnation of his body, in order to become himself again. This can lead you to believe one of two things -- either he was referring to the fact that he had to wait for the next rebirth, or he was implying that there would be many reincarnations of the Contact, but only one that would be perfect in body and mind (or rather, have the potential and capability to be the Contact in truth). If you put that together with what they say in the monologues at the beginning of disc two:


"A life of a man named Lacan... And the lives of countless other men... All but dreams... Now that I am awake, those countless numbers of long, heartrending dreams are almost impossible to remember at all."

And then: "A life of a woman named Sophia... And the lives of countless other women..." (it repeats itself.)


If you think about this, it sounds like they're saying that they've lived a thousand lives (heh, as many as Miang? ^.^ That presents an interesting parallel), yet only those few were truly significant in relation to their cycle. And that could point to the speculation above - that perhaps these countless lives were simply imperfect reincarnations of their true selves, and therefore paid no mind, even by the characters themselves.

I mean, they could mean their four incarnations when saying "countless", but... somehow that just isn't right. It could also be a translation issue, but there's a HUGE difference between "countless", and "four", no matter what language you're translating into. The former implies more than you can count on your own fingers, and, well.... ^^ Really.

I'm not claiming myself right, mind you -- this is just my opinion. But before you respond (or I guess it should be if you respond), really THINK about what I've just written.

I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't just spout off something off the top of your head, or post something along the lines of "well, my friend who can read Japanese says this is totally wrong because he read the PW to me" or anything like that. (That is possibly the worst excuse I've ever heard - most of the time, the translations aren't even complete.) I've got the book, and I know from long experience that there are quite a few loose ends left in translation. Don't take anything for absolute truth.

So in other words... your OPINIONS are what I want. It's always best if they're based in some fact from the game and the PW, but remember that this is speculation. It's supposed to be fun and intersting, not bogged down with partial translations - unless they promote your point, that is. ^_~


Ja mata...

Amber Michelle

"On the heights all paths are paved with daggers." - Wheel of Time

[this message was edited by Myaru on Tue 1 Aug 05:25]


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Azusa Kuraino

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"Re(1):Countless lives..." , Thu 3 Aug 20:50


Well, I did once see a fanfic which played with the idea of characters besides Fei and Elly having past lives. I found that rather interesting... especially since I think there /is/ a part on disc 2 where it specifically states that everyone who wasn't absorbed into Deus had existed through multiple generations. I can see a potential fanfic coming out of that one... if I ever get off my lazy butt long enough to write anything longer than a paragraph. ^^;


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Im a Guy !Rune Grey

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"Re(1):Countless lives..." , Wed 2 Aug 13:19


Well, it really depends... the fact that Fei and Elly only became signifigant 4 times in history seems to be a little odd, after all. And if Fei and Elly were reincarnated more than once, but were not 'perfect', they might not have ever met. Or remembered each other.

Perhaps it was Fei and Elly together that helped to create the conditions for the perfect contact.

But I do agree that the only reason they didn't expound on this more was because it would have taken up too much time. Bleh to Square for not finishing this great game. ^_~;

Rune Grey
~Perpetual Thorn of Logic and Reason
Sorata: Hey can't you make a cooler exit??? Like flying off or disappering into thin air?
Yuto: Only a freak would do something like that in normal space.
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jdmurnaghan

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"Not completely on topic." , Tue 1 Aug 22:07


I didn't know where to toss this in on the board, but I was thinking about the Gazel the other day, and their similarities to the player party. Had anyone noticed the eye patches on two of the Gazel ministry? I think they're each on different eyes, much like Bart and Sigurd. While this could be a design decision, I think having the predecessors of the party so closely resemble them is an intriguing possibility for fan creations. Much like the Rene and Roni parallels, there could be an entire cast much like the present party in say, the Zeboim era- alongside the reincarnated Fei and Elly. Its a shame the Xenogears team didn't have a chance to explore the area more in subsequent Xeno works with Square.

As for the topic- I suppose the conclusion you've made is acceptable. I'm not too much of an expert on the principles of reincarnation (:P), but I would suppose that the process is continuous, and past lives ending up forgotten- with the exception of the perfect rebirth. There's no explanation of some kind of limbo in between rebirths, or any memory of something like that- so I suppose the process is constant.

-John
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Gunblade

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"Re(1):Countless lives..." , Tue 1 Aug 13:37


Hmmm...

I remember that at one point in the story, it was pointed out that the Contacts and the Antitypes were able to remember things from their ancestors. Now, this doesn't mean that EVERY one of Fei's ancestors has been a Contact, or what Grahf refers as a "perfect incarnation." Perhaps the "countless lives" refers to all the other ancestral memories besides the ones of the Contacts that have little relevance to the story.

What's strange about this is that I don't ever recall Fei and Elly having children in any of their past incarnations. So where did these "descendants" come from? ^_^

Well, that's my thought on the topic. I might be wrong, of course, but I'm no expert at Xenogears' storyline. ^_^


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Im a Guy !Emperor Cain

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"Re(2):Countless lives..." , Tue 1 Aug 16:14


To my knowledge, to be the Contact did not require being related to a former contact in any way. After all, didn't all the humans on earth die after the Zeboim era? That would mean that Lacan and Fei were not ancestors of Lacan.
Since Fei refers to there being countless numbers of lives besides Lacan and his own, he probably means that there were plenty of reincarnations of the Contact, although like said, the only perfect ones were probably the 4 in the game. Who knows, maybe other incarnations of Fei and Elly didn't even get to meet? Maybe the contact died soon after birth in an incarnation, or died in war before meeting the antitype. Perhaps the only time there is a perfect contact and antitype is when they meet.
Oh well, that's my 2 cents on the topic.

"Have you ever been in love?" Kissoon replied.
"Yes I think so."
"Then you've been to Quiddity twice. Once the first night you slept out of the womb. The second occassion the night you lay beside the woman you loved. Or man was it?" He laughed. "Whichever."
"Quiddity is the sea."
"Quiddity is the sea. And in it are islands called the Ephemeris."
"I want to go there." Jaff breathed.
"You will. One more time you will."
"When?"
"The last night of your life. That's all we ever get."
-Exerpt from The Great and Secret Show by Clive Barker


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Im a Guy !A C

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"Re(3):Countless lives..." , Wed 2 Aug 14:26


Only 95% of all hu,man life died in the zeboim era.

.........


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DarkSabre

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"Re(3):Countless lives..." , Wed 2 Aug 06:47


Ok my assumption is pretty much covered in other posts on this topic. Basically I think Fei has lived countless lives the big question to me is whether or not the 4 lives mentioned in the game are the only perfect incarnations. Perhaps there were other perfect incarnations say every 500 years with minor ones in between but it was decided not to worry about them since it would just be writing stuff they wouldnt need anyway. I find it interesting that there would only be 4 chances over thousands of years to free the wave existence. Of course this is just my opinion.

Fei and Elly do not get passed down the blood line that idea is just stupid hell does anyone remember that Elly was sterile in the Zeboim era and Emerelda was way too young to have children if she is even capable of doing that. If they were reincarnated down the blood line the story would end right there.

Yes totally useless ha ha chase after it
boy a love thats unattainable no matter
how hard you pursue it.


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Myaru

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"Re(4):Countless lives..." , Fri 4 Aug 01:57


The word 'descendant' does not mean 'direct descendant'. Fei and Elly had to have families in each of their incarnations (even if they were killed or some such, at points in time), wouldn't you think? They had to come from somewhere.

The ancestors that gave way to future Fei and Elly incarnations could very well have been cousins of, say, Kim and Elly in the Zeboim era, that were lucky enough to survive. (It's my guess that the Animus and such always survived -- otherwise, how could there be pure descendants of the Gazel Ministry (Billy, Bart, etc)? Their descendants are of the same blood, and therefore would carry on that family line.

See what I mean? Fei and Elly wouldn't have to have children. ^.^


Ja mata...

Amber Michelle

"On the heights all paths are paved with daggers." - Wheel of Time


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Im a Guy !Gunblade

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"Re(5):Countless lives..." , Sun 13 Aug 00:23


Errr...I'm back rather late...^_^

Any way, I remember reading at one point in the game that the Contact and the Anti-type had genes which stored memories of their past ancestors. If Fei and Elly didn't have children, then how did their memories pass on into the genes? There is no way their relatives' genes would know. ^_^

Uh...unless genes can communicate through long distance...=P


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Myaru
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"Re(6):Countless lives..." , Sun 13 Aug 04:45:


Okay.... I think I addressed this in the "Eternity in a Box" thread, but I'm not totally sure....

To make it simple... trust Zohar, you know? ^.^ What if they aren't descendants? Then how would thei rgenes follow through? (And keep in mind that genes aren't passed through children like that anyway, so it wouldn't make any difference.

Fei and Elly are reborn in their perfect incarnations when they right conditionsare met in their DNA. That's all it really is... so it collects over time, it seems.


Ja mata.

Amber Michelle

"On the heights all paths are paved with daggers." - Wheel of Time

[this message was edited by Myaru on Sun 13 Aug 04:49]


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Ardonis

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"Re(5):Countless lives..." , Sun 6 Aug 13:20


It's the genetic slot machine. Basically, from a purely scientific point of view, the MINIMUM amount of time for the exact genetic sequence for the contact and the anti-type to resurface would be 500 years. This means that things have to happen in one way and one way only. It's possible for it to take longer. The "perfect incarnations" of the contact and the anti-type are just incarnations who have exactly the same DNA. Thus how in all those 4 sequences they always look the same. This is just a purely scientific idea though. Xenogears as a whole is a melding of science, philosophy, and spirituality. It's entirely based on Hebrew gnosticism, taken from kabbalistic tradition. There is a scientific theory nowadays, although not very popular, that makes alot of sense that is along these lines, that everything is an emination, what the gnostics called an "aeon," from some higher dimension. This is the holographic paradigm, and it's explained in a book called "The Holographic Universe," by Michael Talbot. Strange how a book on reality can so resemble a video game, but then again the game is based in reality. Ah well, stay tuned for more rantings and ravings of a loon.

The world is what we make it.


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Myaru
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"Re(6):Countless lives..." , Tue 8 Aug 04:59


Just taking what you say into account in a general way...

It could very well be that the most recent incarnations of Fei and Elly came about so soon because of the interference of the Big Three (Miang, Grahf, Krelian).

Things in Xenogears happened in cycles, or patterns... at least, the important stuff seemed to, as it was based on the one cycle that drove everything through the Contact and the Anti-type. If the gaps between previous incarnations are taken into account... just going by what there is, mind you, and that isn't much... Fei and Elly of the game shouldn't have been born again for something like 2000 years (after Nisan).

From Abel to Kim, there was a difference of six thousand years... from Kim to Lacan, it was nearly four thousand... It's not exactly a pattern, but I see no reason for the difference to change so drastically unless there was interference.

Of course, I doubt this came as a surprise, either way. We know there was some interference by the three, no matter what happened. **shrug** It's just a matter of how much, and how it affected the cycle. ^_^


Ja mata!

Amber Michelle

"On the heights all paths are paved with daggers." - Wheel of Time


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DarkSabre

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"Countless lives... What about everyone else?" , Wed 9 Aug 03:02


Ok I was thinking what if everyone else has past lives but don't end up with the same bodies as in their past lives. When Miang and Elly reunited she mentioned something about people escaping the fate of being turned into Wels by living through multiple generations. What if she was referring to the people being reborn as opposed to people having children. The same rebirth process could have been true for everyone and not just Fei and Elly however in their case their lives have a specific purpose with them being reborn every so often as the contact and Anti-type.

This is not fact just a mad theory I had a long time ago which never caught on.

Yes totally useless ha ha chase after it
boy a love thats unattainable no matter
how hard you pursue it.


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Myaru
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"Re(1):Countless lives... What about everyone " , Wed 9 Aug 04:24


This isn't such a mad theory. ^.~ I actually posted something like that to the GA mailing list a long time ago, and more recently to the DeM OOG list.

It's more than just funny that the Animus seem to pop up around the same time as the Contact and the Anti-type, wouldn't you say? They were there with Sophia, they're with Fei and Elly... who is to say that they weren't with Kim and Elly? (Abel and Elly don't count, really... they were the first. ^^)

The only thing is, they wouldn't hold any memories... But their personalities, and perhaps even the basic events of their lives, might all be the same as their previous lives.

Some day, I'll post that stuff. Someday. ^^; If you want to write something about it though, I'll be happy to post it on my site. ^_^


Ja mata.

Amber Michelle

"On the heights all paths are paved with daggers." - Wheel of Time


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DarkSabre

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"Re(2):Countless lives... What about everyone" , Thu 10 Aug 02:03


Its a theory I had for a while but last time I posted at Nisan Sanctuary nobody agreed with me. This leads to the question will they all stay dead this time now that Deus is out of the picture. presumably the ressurection of Deus took longer than expected which is why reincarnated humans developed a resistance to being turned into Wels.

Another point this is getting way off track is that maybe the reason that the length it takes for the anti-type and contact to be reborn gets smaller and smaller is because people were developing that immunity. The question is from Miang's point of view do Fei and Elly serve much of a role in the ressurection of Deus after all they are trapped in the cycle primarily by the wave Existence

Yes totally useless ha ha chase after it
boy a love thats unattainable no matter
how hard you pursue it.


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Myaru
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"Re(3):Countless lives... What about everyone" , Thu 10 Aug 02:21


But apparently, the will of the Existence and the will of Deus are one and the same -- at least in the creation of the cycle. Later on, it's obvious that Deus intends to use the Zohar machine to achieve its purpose, or rather, what intent was programmed into it before, but...

As it is, I think the link of the Contact and the Anti-type is out of the hands of both Deus and the Wave Existence. They can't actually interefere, as you see in the game, or things would have gone very differently, wouldn't you think?


Ja mata.

Amber Michelle

"On the heights all paths are paved with daggers." - Wheel of Time


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